Transcribed by: Hawa Kante

Zoe:Hey, everyone, welcome to the second installment of lemonade G a part of the lemonade podcast. We are so excited to have you back and today we'll be talking about nature versus nurture and discussing whether anyone is inherently good or bad. So let's get into it. What's everyone? Smokin '?

Bethany:God, literally, I'm smoking whatever I found I was not prepared for the week run today. And I was like, Oh, shit, I gotta find whatever I got. So I have no idea. And there's like wax on top of this, too. I'm just like, scraping it all together. I don't know, man. I'm probably gonna be lost in like, 10 minutes.

London:I'm not smoking today. I'm just not in the mood. That's real.

Bethany: Okay, London, you can be the designated driver when we get to law students.

London: Yeah, that's what I figured what happened anyway.

Zoe: So yeah, yeah, let's get into it, though.

Bethany: Okay, so I know, this isn't how you guys feel, because I've heard y'all talk about it before. But I think people are born inherently good. And that is a hill I will die on.

London: I just have a big bias against people. That's what it is. I can't. I already know I don't like us as a species. So I was just anything we were like, people are gonna, like, No, everyone is horrible. And that's just my biggest bias from living in like America in like, yeah, all of that. So. But I know that, like, that's a bit ridiculous. Like, not like, we're not as terrible as we seem. It just has a lot to do with life, society and all that bullshit.

Bethany: I know. But didn't we develop society and morality, we decided what made people shitty, we decided what made people good. And I think that the human ability to do that kind of says something really, because there's no other animal out there who's like, Hey, me playing with this mouse for 30 minutes before I eat it. It's kind of shitty of me. Now, only people go out of their way to like, say that there were bad things, it's easier to say we're inherently bad because we do so many bad things. But I think it really just says so much. Because we're so bothered by it. Even when we do bad things ourselves, we always have guilt. And I think even like the worst person in the world, probably, that's not good for your brain like being like all that guilt that just eats away at you. It's not natural to be bad. That's why we're so disturbed by it. And I think it's easier for us to be like, no, no, we're just born bad than to say like, No, we weren't good and got corrupted so far like that. This is what we are now. You know.

Zoe: over conscience gets in the way of everything where it's just like, yeah, like things just like eating at you. But then I also feel like mental health as a little bit of like, a little bit of a role to play in that just because like I think of I don't know, like narcissism, where you just don't really have that like filter of realizing that when you have caused harm, it should probably hurt a little bit.

Bethany: Narcissists, in particular, hate themselves, though, that's like one of the key factors of narcissism is that they're so obsessed with themselves, but they can't stand themselves. So maybe some part of them understand that it's them doing this, like maybe some part of them is processing, hey, maybe what I'm doing is really fucked up and really harming people, but they just can't get through that filter. But I don't know if I've had narcissists in my life. I think they do now, more than they like to let on. 

Zoe: No one wants to admit that they're narcissists. They actively wake up in the day, and it's like, you know what, I'm gonna let my narcissistic qualities shine through? I don't know. I feel like it just always comes back to power and control. Because you get everyone who's like trying to gain something from someone you know? And almost seems Life is a game over like anything else, if that makes sense.

London: I was just gonna say that the whole power thing really shapes though, how like, we interact as people in general. And that's a lot of like, will make someone good. And what makes someone bad. It's like, has a lot to do with, like, who has the power and what they do once they have that power?

Zoe: Yeah, I feel like there's also just it's like that ingrained. Like, you never realize how bad the world is until you realize how bad the world is. And it's like, you can't unsee it. But then it's like, how many times like violence just literally goes back to power and control. I mean, even I think of colonization, power and control. Like, I feel like that's one of the most integral parts, I guess, of everything within our society, like everything ties back into colonization.

Bethany: I don't know if the power necessarily says anything about the nature of people, because the nature of power represents a very small percentage of mankind who is really in power. And then the people that aren't in power that are fighting to be, that's what we're discussing. I feel like the nature of survival, like this little small percentage of people have just set up a world to suit them and their personal needs, and then everyone else is just scrambling to survive underneath. I feel like when you put people in a situation where they actually have all their needs attended to, they turn into different creatures, they're not fighting for power, they're not fighting to live. They're just, I don't know, people don't want to fucking sit there and suck and haul ass at work all day and get a goddamn promotion. They want to sit and drink and fucking watch movies and read books and hang out with the people that they love. They don't want to fucking do that shit. 2% of people who like to go crazy and wanna take over everything, and then everyone else is left scrambling, because like this one small group. 

Zoe: Yeah,so this just reminds me it's like returning to my point about the state of nature. And I am going back to OG, philosophical thoughts, like Plato, and I can't think like everyone who likes Socrates and Aristotle, but I think of Locke, he had the idea that life is poor, dirty, brutish, and short. And that, like, if we didn't have laws, everyone would literally just like, totally duke it out all the time, like, they would just be going at it. And I always think about that, because like, you think of all the times in which people think that things are being threatened, they will go ballistic. And so like, in that state of nature, it's like, you know, if you're just living in your own little house, and you're just minding your business, and someone like comes over, and they, I don't know, they need sugar, and they just walk in your house, and they grab the sugar, and it's whatever, and they go back. And, like, in theory, if you want it to kill them, you could kill them. I don't think a lot of people would, but you could. But then it's like, also, you know, you think of like, if someone's just to walk into your house, and like, take everything, or even just a walk in your house and be like him, I own this now you gotta leave, sorry, it's mine, you're probably gonna fight a little bit, there's probably gonna be some defense that kicks in. So just think about that. And then also, just like kind of returning that back to the forefront of what I was talking about. Hold on, it's coming to me. Thanks for the pens kicking in. I don't think all people are inherently bad. But I think we all want to get into a pretty nasty fight at some point in our lives. Because we want to defend the things that matter most to us. And like not saying that people will just like to go and pick fights just to pick fights. I really don't think that that would happen as much. But like, I really do think that if we had no laws, I think there's a lot of really problematic laws. But if we are no laws if we had no like guiding principle, or even just like ideas in which we have made into, like, what we deem as moral and like, what we even deem as like morality in general, we would totally be like at each other's necks like 24/7 like we would not give a fuck.

Bethany:That's not how it works from an anthropology angle. People invented laws. Zoey, when you get a group of people with no laws together, they invent laws. Laws are human nature. You're saying without laws, we'd be horrible, but we created laws, laws are human nature, creating limits to people what you can and cannot do, what is human nature?

Zoe: What the state of nature evaluates, like, what happens when there is no authority? No laws? No, no one to tell you?

London: No wait, though, I kind of agree with Bethany, just because she said that, like laws and authority are two different things. And when she said the whole thing about life, people just want to, you know, live a really calm life that reminded me of the good place. And if you haven't seen it, you should watch it. But it's basically this whole show that's about morality and ethics and stuff. And so basically, I saw someone comment on the show once and was like, The Good Place proves that if you give people if people have all their needs met, than they have, and they aren't worried about like working and money and all of that type of trivial shit, that they have the time to actually better themselves as people that brings in the question, have we created bad people but we'll start have a sense

Bethany: Yeah, and I also think I also think that everyone is born bad. Arguments are just very, very convenient to capitalism isn't it not so convenient that ya know, it's natural to want to fight everybody for resources? No, that's natural to step on people and use people to get billions. No, that's that's how people naturally really are when it's like, no, it's not. That's how you're forcing people to be to survive.

Zoe: You know, it's funny that you bring that up too. Okay, so I also just googled it because I was trying to find that book that came out a while ago, and I haven't found it yet. It's not like it's Hobbes, Hobbes. Hobbes is the person who's like, whatever. Everyone is awful. Locke, as a person, it's like everyone's pretty good with reservations. Ironic that you bring it up too, because literally, the state of nature was like, based on Jamestown, while the little white settlers came in, and they're like, this is my now.

Bethany: When we're adding outside factors. These outside factors aren't part of human nature, religious corruption, part of the nature of power again, they went and they told all these people, you got to do this, or this is going to happen, you got to kill all the Native Americans, you have to and human beings are like, Oh, okay, like, I guess I'm gonna do that to survive. So I really just feel like that comes down to power and survival again, and I don't know, I don't think I don't think human beings should be judged by those in power, the 1% or like what we do to survive, because that's not a human trait. That's an animal trait. Any animal will do anything to survive

Zoe: Right? Lord of the Flies is the book that I'm thinking about.

Bethany: That happened in like real life where kids got stuck on an island, and they were all like, super chill about it. And the guy was trying to make a comment on like, pretentious, 1% Rich kids. And everyone was like, look, it's a great comment on human nature. And I'm like, is it or isn't the comment on the privileged? Come on, guys?

Zoe: No. So it was completely based on Hobbes's theory of which, you know, people go crazy. Like, I can't even think of a world without capitalism. I literally can't even think of a world without colonization.

Bethany: I can make a crap shoot and hope for the best. Like, capitalism is only like a couple 100 years old guys. Like we like to call some old mercantilism capitalism, but it wasn't even really that this new age capitalism was just leeches. The Earth is not that old, historically speaking.

Zoe: Right. There's just so many things, I think that play out into like, literally every aspect of our lives where it's like, you do.

Bethany: There's this comic, and I'm paraphrasing, because again, it's a comic, so most of its illustrated, and it was talking about removing the machines of capitalism. And it was talking about how, you know, we're, we're the workers of the machines of capitalism, capitalism can't run without us. But at the same time, if we shut everything down, like a great deal of people who rely on it are going to get hurt talking about building new things separate from the machinery of capitalism, if we keep going with the weird metaphor, I guess, before we can take away those supports. The problem is that our government is very not ready for that because it sounds very, oh my God, that sounds so communist, we're gonna we're gonna provide them with non capitalist support, that's gonna cost money, and then take away the support. So they're gonna have to pay for both in a minute really just comes down to the people in power have to make good choices, and they won't.

London: Yeah, they never will. I just always think about how, like, there's no reason we should be struggling for resources when we have clearly enough, yeah, just listen to capitalism, because there's always going to you need someone to capitalize off of and to do what you need to withhold resources from groups of people to make it seem like everything is like a battle.

Bethany: I want to take this in a more positive direction, because holy crap, downer guys, what's like, so sad, anyway, much more positive. You guys know, like back in the olden days, and I mean, like Neanderthal yielding days. So they found this skull of this Neanderthal that had signs of brain damage, when it was super young, something like it was like a spike or something type thing went straight through his head, when he was really, really young, he would not have been able to walk by himself, he would not have been able to eat by himself, he would not be able to, like do anything by himself at all. And he still lives to be an adult. So that means like, even as you know, pre human, really, we still found value in human life enough to take care of somebody who could not take care of themselves. And that is what I like to think of as human nature, I like to think that originally what got us to this place, human beings were not the smartest, we were not the fastest by any means, were not the strongest. One of the best traits that human beings have for survival was that we could communicate and work in large groups, human beings could divide tasks amongst each other, human beings could work together in a way that other animals didn't. And I think people like to forget, we always say survival of the fittest, like every man for themselves. And that's not true. What made people survive. What makes people the fittest is our reliance on each other. And I think that says so much about the human race, and I think we like to ignore it because it makes us feel weird about how corrupted we've become since then, it's easier to say, oh, no, we've always been like this. And it's not true. It's not true. We've not always been like this. Human beings. Human nature, I think, is truly just the desire for community because that was how we survived before. 

Zoe: All right, I think humanity has like a massive piece to play in everything too. Because without community, what would you have?

London: And we've always had? Well, we used to always have community. And it's like, the further and further we get from that, it's like, See, now I'm taking it in a negative spot again, because I'm thinking of like, the president, but like, No, you're completely right about, like, if you think about, like, the core of human nature, we were never gonna be like bed. But we also created the morals that made us get in bed. And then it's like, but before we were just trying to survive, like any animal would. So what happened?

Bethany: So I like to think someday we'll reach some magical Utopia version of the world where everyone will have their needs met. And I think most people will probably be fine. I mean, obviously, there's outliers, there's rare cases. And then like, morality itself changes all the time. So rarely, there's no perfect society, because what we find moral and real now is going to be immoral later. I don't know, I just hope that we always keep progressing to at least fulfill needs, because I feel like we have all of our needs met, we're at least at a place where we can come from, like, we can come from someplace that's not struggling, because I feel like people are in survival mode. It's like they're, it's, we're at our worst, we'll do anything to survive. Any animal will do anything to survive. And I feel like once that factor is taken away, I feel like that's where we'll really have the best opportunity to have. I mean, we'll never reach utopia, but utopia, you know, like, it'll never happen, you know, Utopia as a concept, not reality. But I think that would be the first step if you have to fulfill everyone's needs first.

Zoe: Why even? What is it like, yeah, Maslow's hierarchy of needs. And that's from like, the 40s. And it literally like it rains true today, when people have food, how shelter loves family connection, like, you know, like, it greatly impacts the way in which you like exists within the world. So if you're not making ends meet, you know, and again, I just dropped back to capitalism, like, if you have to work all the time, and you can't do anything, you can't see anyone if you can't take care of yourself. If your health is shitty, like, you can't, you cannot exist. Well, within the world, you literally cannot function.

London: No, I agree. And I feel like the more that people's needs are met, and the more and more like we evolve and get smarter, and whatever. It's like, that's why more things are coming to the light. And we're always like, hey, actually, this is Ron K. Actually, we don't like this because as long as we actually get our needs met, we can actually like to think about things and say, Hey, this is not right. But as long as needs are being restricted from people, that's the best way to control them. And that's why capitalism reigns

Bethany: Really capitalism is natural, that's what's unnatural. I don't even have any, like anything to add to that capitalism is just a natural, like, Y'all know why already. It's just a nightmare.

Zoe: Well, in the fact that like, we really just don't even think about it being something that we should not be like clinging on to, like, we have no like capitalism doesn't it doesn't benefit any of us by any means.

London: It benefits 1%. And everybody else is asleep to it. Yeah. It's so mad when people who like aren't rich, or aren't in the 1%, or like, defending capitalism, and like, it's doing nothing for you, baby. You're asleep. This is not okay. They've got you convinced?

Zoe: Well, even just like, you know, like millionaires and billionaires, and just people who have a ton of money. Again, without capitalism, you'd be nothing. Like you figured out how to cheat the system greatly. The system benefits you great now, try to exist outside of it because you can

London: It's the craziest thing people who were like weren't billionaires and millionaires, just like the rest of us. And then all of a sudden as soon as they like to get up there they suddenly offer capitalism and that's just the craziest shit to be.

Zoe; Even think of. Everyone who defends billionaires in our life, they work for their money and it's like, you literally cannot be a billionaire without exploiting someone at some point in time. But then I think of like, oh my gosh, like the people who argue against taxing the rich even because you're like, Oh, they're like they earn that money. They don't, they don't have to give it away. And it's like, no, they stole that money like that money is yours. Just so you know what to do

Bethany: I do not earn my money? My money's still taxed. I work. What does that mean? They can take mine too. You don't, they don't bat an eye at taxing me. Oh, and then all those like, oh, well, they donate it. Most billionaires donate like 1% of their money. And I'm like, Dude, if we put like a real fucking tax on them, their f*@# charity work means nothing you know.

 Zoe: Think of the amount of people who donate purely because they get tax breaks from it. You're donating so much money, but it's like they have so much money and it doesn't do anything for them. It's like if I was to put dollars into some fund or whatever, like some charity that's like $500,000 for them. So make it make sense.

London: Capitalism is evil. 

Zoe: I think that's the thing too, it always scares me because I'm like, people, like, we cannot live without capitalism. And I don't mean that I'm like a, like a, we can't do it. But it's just like, people freak out. Like I even think of like, you could utter communist and like, you can literally get arrested for that, and history. And even now, like the fact that socialism is such a taboo, like, Oh, my God, you're socialists. And it's like, not necessarily like, I just kind of don't want people to die, because they can't make ends meet. But if that's socialism, cool.

London: It's just like, I'm not a capitalist. And that's it.

Zoe: You cannot even make it better. You can't reform a system like this.

London: System reform, that's the most bullshit concept in the world.

Bethany: What some people think they want is system reform, what they really mean is they want a system to break down. Because if you tear down capitalism all at once, a lot of people are going to die, a lot of my land, let's be, and it's not going to be the rich, powerful people that are going to die. It's going to be underprivileged people, it's we minorities, to be those who meet me, the people who die. What you want is you want a progressive breakdown of capitalism with the replacement of something else. And I think that's what most people mean, when they say reform, they just don't necessarily have the vocabulary to explain it. Because I don't know, America in particular, I don't know how it is in other countries, but America in particular, we really feed capitalism to Baby's like, as soon as you're born.

Zoe: Yeah, yeah. No, I think I think there's just so much that so much that's in that where it's, I feel like yeah, to watch it all crumble at once would be so bad. But I think as we start to just like, what's that like the game with the marbles and the sticks, and you have to put all the sticks and little holes and you put the marbles and you have to like keep pulling all the sticks to make sure that the marbles don't fall, but like just that idea to like, you know, you can pull as many sticks, but like at the end of the day, like if you can get a couple of marbles to drop each time like you're golden.

Bethany: And I think we really romanticize revolution too. I mean, I also romanticize revolutions, so don't get me wrong, like when people start talking about via training and like chopping heads, I'm like, Yeah, but in reality, it ends in a lot of deaths, for a lot of people that were not involved and going to be minorities, and they're going to be disabled, and they're going to be queer, and they're going to be homeless, you know, it's not going to be the super rich guys holed up in their mansions dying. So I mean, God is a pair tearing out like, tear jerking. It is like progress has to be made in steps. I would love bigger leaps, I would love all at once, but that's just not how reality works. And honestly, at the end of those revolutions, half the time the shady people that were in power still have power, right?

London: No, yeah, I agree. I always say that too. And because there are so many people who will be like, Oh, I don't do this because of capitalism. And I don't do that. And I'm like, But baby, what are you doing? Like, are you doing like, I agree, educate yourself, educate your others, organize, do what you can, but if you're doing all of that, but ignoring the very real issues that are currently happening, then what are you really doing? Because there's people who like I won't vote because of this, like listen, do whatever you want, but don't yell at the state of what is happening and not also recognize that it is very real. And you can't change it all at once. It's not going to change overnight. So for you to sit on your high horse and be like I'm not doing this because of this you're really hurting a lot more people.

Zoe: Yeah I mean, I even think of like the whole voting thing always makes me think a lot and like I get the arguments against it I think especially just within this last election like neither of the candidates were good, but obviously one is going to cause a hell of a lot more harm than the other one not seeing the other one is totally absolved from harm but like I don't know is somewhat held accountable at some points in time you're like the other one might not have been ever held accountable for anything and so I think there's just like a lot with that but then it was almost just like so disgruntled to be like okay, we did it we changed the system it's everything's gonna be great now and it's like we have a long way to go like that nothing your your issues whatever you deemed your issues to be temporarily might have just disappeared and your own like, personal i But like, there's so many issues that are very real for so many others, and I feel like there's just like a lot of ignorance in that.

Bethany: I think that a great deal of that when they thought like when they thought the election was whatever they felt their problems would be over is I think the Donald Trump problem brought a lot of social issues to people's attention. A lot of people might not have been super aware of Black Lives Matter, a lot of people might not have been super aware of certain women's rights issues that were addressed or immigrants rights issues. But the Trump administration really like took them to such an extreme, everyone really saw them in the light of the horse that they really were. And I think that they thought, Okay, well, if I noticed them when he got here, maybe when he leaves, they'll go away. And I'm hoping that it's not that they ignore problems from Ilan, I think it's probably just going to be an ugly slap in the face where they're like, oh, no, these problems are still here. I don't, I don't think those people are necessarily ignoring the issues. I think they're just having an ugly Wake Up Call right now, where they're realizing, Oh, wait, Donald Trump less, but these problems are still problems.

Zoe: Like, there's a lot of people that are still like, it doesn't, I don't see it, it's not in front of my face anymore. Therefore, I don't really have to care about it. Because it's not a big issue. If it's not right in front of my face. I agree wholeheartedly, wholeheartedly with you, in the first part where like, there were so many things that were literally like, this is real, this is happening, things are being like, done world in which like we need to really pay attention to, but I think there's also like, there's so many people that I think are so checked out from reality, and so checked out from what, what happens, what has happened. And I think that I mean, it ties into a lot of things, I think we also do a pretty shit job and like, trying to educate people on like, the history of the world, and like how awful we have been, and, like now that there's like a good person, again, heavy quotation marks around good, who, you know, we can look at and be like, you're not going to stray us like too far from where we want to be. But it's the organizers and the people who have always been doing this work that are continuing to do the work. And so I think of like, in most of the people that I you know, are like doing the work and like doing a lot of just kind of like the groundwork organizing our people that have lived like, largely, like unpolitical, and not necessarily totally, like, absolved from politics, but just in the idea of like, politics are never going to save us and I'm like, I'm in the same boat, where it's like politics are never gonna save us. I think we can change the way we think about things I can think we can, we can change the ways in which like, what we don't know, like, recognizing what we deal with, are we as soon as like, moral or like, stuff like that, but and laws will follow with that, but like laws will not fix everything. You can't even though things are illegal, things still happen? Yeah, that's my thought.

Bethany: Well, I think you're thinking of earlier when we were discussing laws, I think you're thinking of a lot more like, like, traditional form of law where there's like a police order, and there's like people, most laws are social rules. You know, most laws are like, if you do this, you're going to be ostracized. And it's more like a natural consequence that develops versus like, an actual, like, strict set of code of law.

Zoe: Well, I think you're thinking of earlier when we were discussing laws, I think you're thinking of a lot more like, like, traditional form of law where there's like a police order, and there's like people, most laws are social rules. You know, most laws are like, if you do this, you're going to be ostracized. And it's more like a natural consequence that develops versus like, an actual, like, strict set of code of law.

London: It's like, it seems like the real laws are kind of pointless. Like, it's more Yeah, like nothing he said about like, yeah, the social aspect, and like, what's considered good or like, bad, that's what really sticks out to people more than like, an actual law. Because, in general, most people will say, like, hey, kicking a puppy is bad. And if someone saw you do that, they'd be like, Yo, what the fuck are you doing? But also like, Is that against the law? No. So it's like, what? What's really real?

Bethany: That makes me think of when people say something racist, and they're like, freedom of speech. It's like, Yeah, I'm gonna go to jail. You are not protected from the social consequences of the bullshit streaming out of your mouth though.

London: Yes, look, you made the choice to do that. So suffering the consequences isn't like freedom of speech. You have the freedom of speech and you said it now here are the social consequences that come along with that.

London: During this bad, um, I don't know people are only really bad when they're seeking power or they and I don't even think it's I was gonna say like, then they need to survive. But is that even bad like you need to survive because that's a lot of the times when people start to really show like Bed quotation marks, qualities. 

Bethany: I feel like that's such a gray area and survival, because on the one hand, I don't think you're free from the choices you make in survival mode. Like if you harm people in survival mode, like you still have to pay the consequences for that. But I feel like it is also harder to make like a moral judgment, because as much as we'd like to say, oh, no, I wouldn't do that. In that situation, you never really know, you might have made the same choices. So I don't think they're free from consequences. But I do feel like maybe they get a little more empathy towards it. I don't know. And obviously, whoever they harmed probably has completely different feelings on it, too. Like it's such a gray area

Zoe: I always think of like, flight because we always learn fight or flight. But we never really at least, like when I was younger, we never really got into freeze, because it's fight, flight or freeze. Like you see, like freezing more with like animals, but we haven't ever really liked taking it on, like humans do that a lot too. All the time.

Bethany: All the time. It's like watching a train crash thing in there, because we're like, oh, this is gory. And I love it. You're shocked when people are shocked. They freeze, they need a moment process.

Zoe: Right. Right. And so I always think there's a lot to say with that. Because it's just like, I don't know, it's just like, vulnerability and its influence into that kind of stuff. Yeah. I don't know where I was going with that. Can you tell?

Bethany: It's okay, it's a weed podcast doesn't matter.

Zoe:Oh, yeah, I feel like it's either just like, there's always regardless of what you choose, it's always going to be like a moment of freezing. Like freezing isn't inherently bad. You know.

Bethany: It's an important part of survival, because it's your brain deciding what the puck is going to do in the next 10 seconds, because it's gonna decide whether it's going to fight or flight.

London: How much of a choice is it when you're in fight or flight mode?

Zoe: You don't really have a choice.

Bethany: Yeah, your subconscious is making a decision. That's your subconscious mind absorbing information. Super. It just happened so fast, you don't know especially due to adrenaline, like you have your brain processes time so much differently. When you're having an adrenaline rush. Your brain is all like taking in all of this information at once. Let's just say in the situation of an attacker. How big is my attacker? How many do I have? Can I actually take this guy? How many exits do I have? Can I get away fast? Do I look faster than him? And all of that happens like in a second in your brain deciding whether or not we're going to try and take this guy or dip?

Zoe: Yeah, there was one time where I crashed my car while riding and crashed it unnecessarily but like, I was spinning out really badly, and I like to ditch myself, or put myself into a ditch and it was like super icy outside. And I remember it was the weirdest thing. Because I was spinning and it was like super late at night. I like to remember the exact song, the exact moment of the song. I remember literally it going so slow. It felt like I was just sitting for forever. And I was just like watching all of this snow go by, you know, it was seconds. It was seconds because I was going really quickly. And so I was fine. Obviously, my car was fine and everything but like it was the weirdest thing because everything just felt so slow. Good. I remember thinking like, it's kind of a dumb song to die to if I'm going to die. Like that was like the only thing that went through my mind. On the fact that like, can't really do anything but just this like, wish I would have had a better song On.

Bethany: I know exactly what you mean. When I was like 18 I was in this really bad car accident when I was driving. I was taking a left and somebody crossed the double yellow and slammed right into me. Right. And I don't actually remember too much of it. People who saw it said My head went through the driver's window. I don't remember that happening. My window was busted out that way. So I was like, Oh, that makes sense. All I remember after it hit me was there was this moment where all the glass was like going in front of me and I could hear all tinkling like in slow motion. And my only thought was god it looks like you know, spoken car insurance commercials. That's been slammed into my head. Was there a window in the little tinkling glass? And my first thought was, this is like a commercial. Like, I've seen this commercial where it's like the glasses typically in slow motion. And I was like, I got this. Right, that's impressive. And then all of a sudden, my car pulled over and I was talking to people and I was like, Well hi people where'd you come from? The brain really does tie into human nature because, you know, we're talking about the brain's needs like it needs to protect itself. Like, I don't know, I feel like that kind of we can tie that back in like one of the other brains needs well. The brain also needs community and the brain also needs love and the brain needs. Acceptance, you know, like people who are ostracized or like Anything circles back to your law to laws like by like, enforced by social ostracism, social ostracization, it all comes back to fulfilling I don't know, needs. It's all about needs. I guess that's my nature, getting our needs fulfilled

Zoe: You know, like, if you don't have home, if you don't have food, if you don't have access to funds, like, you're like, working through trauma is not on the top of your mind. Like getting through the day is going to be on your mind.

Bethany: Yeah. And it's like, how can you work through trauma? If you're actively living with trauma? Like if you're, you're not working with your trauma with your abusive partner, if you're still with them? Yeah, you're not working through the traumas of poverty and starvation if you're still actively porn starving. And I feel like that's where therapy kind of gets a it kind of fails, because there's only so much again, do to help you if you're still actively being traumatized every day.

Zoe:Yeah, well, I think that's the thing again, just like going back to capitalism, like capitalism is literally harmful. Like, the, like, capitalism causes harm. And like, if you don't, again, it's yeah, if you don't have your needs met, like you can't. You can't work through anything, you can't really get anything done. You can't, you're not like awarded that privilege of even like getting like a second to like, sit down and like, think, or even just, I mean, don't get me started on like how much healthcare is but like, access to health care, access to like mental health professionals access to that sort of thing as well.

Bethany: And I think that's where actually so much of like the defunding the police argument, or actually, you know, abolishing the police even argument comes from, it comes from the idea that people are less likely to commit crimes, if you invest in your community, people are less likely to steal things, if they can pay their bills, people are less likely to go on have episodes in public if they have access to like regular mental health facilities and services. And it's really just saying, Hey, you're spending all this time pouring money into your law enforcement pouring money into your laws and your structure. And you're ignoring all the needs that are being that aren't being met, that are causing all this crime to begin with? Where it's like, I'm not, I'm not super radical, I think defunding the police. Versus, I mean, I guarantee you, someb ody could convince me, like, who's much more educated on the topic. But I just think if we had a policing force that specifically just dealt with violent crimes, and left everything else to social services, and social workers and medical care providers, and community advocates, and just a million other ways that we could be directing these 911 calls.

London:Yeah, the whole idea is that, like, all these things exist, under all these crimes exists under capitalism. And like, they wouldn't like a lot of these things, like you said, like, we had health care, all these things, if capitalism wasn't so focused on helping the rich get richer, essentially, then maybe we'd actually have like, we wouldn't have these crimes like they exist because of capitalism.

Bethany: Even most gang violence, how much how many kids have been stopped from going into gangs, just by having like, after school activities, you know, how much like something as simple as like, after school programs for kids to go to, like, like something as simple as that something is providing children with community, and a place to be.

London:And a whole lot of that has to do with systems like poverty and shit. Because like, if people had the resources and access to the resources, they wouldn't have to turn to that type of shit.

Zoe:Even if you're gonna roll it back, like when we were building like suburban areas, and like just even urban areas, and like all that, like, like, all of the redlining and if your neighborhood was redlined, you did not have access to parks, you did not have access to good schools, you did not have access to good housing, you did not have access. Like, if you were to pull up like where landfills are, were water treatment centers, they're always in places which were redlined. But like rattling is still very much alive, still very much exists still very much is like a very prevalent thing that is still causing harm. You can't get away from that. And like, when you start to realize that and start to change, like the actual systems in place, I'm gonna even think of like neighborhoods, like bad neighborhoods, again, bad and heavy quotation marks, like is it bad or is it just like, heavily non white and over policed.

London:Over policed and underfunded.

Zoe:And I even think of like, even just kind of less about that, but just like about drugs and stuff like that, like just I don't know, like heavy drug use. I do not think that anyone should go to prison for drug use at all.

London: Find it, these people are doing it, because you've ostracized them from the legal job market, so they can't get legal jobs. So they've decided to turn to this and you decide to criminalize them?

Bethany: That's how sex works. That works too as you ostracize them for being sex workers. But then they can't work anywhere else, because you've ostracized them. 

Zoe: I even think of homeless populations, where it's like, if you're in the house, you can't have access to a bank account, because bank accounts require you to have an address. And if you want to get a job, you have to have an address. So you can't get that. And then you think of like, okay, well, even if you were to like, figure out, like, if you were to have someone's address, you have to have a phone for them to call you. So that's a phone bill, you have to have the internet in most places to apply in the first place. If you don't have that, you can't do that. 

Bethany: You even make it through all those steps and get the job application and they call you in for the interview. Okay, I'm homeless, how am I gonna shower? Oh, am I gonna dress? Do I have an interview attire? But where can I even like, wash my hair? You know.

Zoe: Can I look presentable enough for you? And then you know, then what? You know.

Bethany: I always tell homeless people to get jobs. It's like when you hire a homeless person off the street, right? Yeah. How are

London:They supposed to get jobs with what resource

Zoe: And then uh, you know, even just the idea to have like, Okay, if you were to find a house, you're probably going to have to pay a deposit. So then you think of like, you know, like one month's rent being deposited, even half a month's rent, even a quarter of a month's rent, you know, if you're already struggling to, like, find income in the first place. It's not. Like it's not you can't make it work.

Bethany: Let's talk about mental health and homelessness and drug use. How many people do drugs to self medicate for their mental health? I mean, let's talk about how medical trials weren't even required to be diverse until 1996. And like most antidepressants still don't work that well for women in particular. And it's like, well, and then let's talk about how being homeless, well, people with mental health problems tend to become homeless, and then being homeless tends to give you mental health problems. So that's like an ugly cycle in and of itself. And it's like, well, of course, drug use gets thrown in there because you're homeless, and you don't have access to doctors and you don't have access to pharmacies, but you have access to the guy on the corner that sells drugs.

Zoe: when I ever think to like, even if it's something where it's like, like an appetite suppressant. Like you're gonna spend your $10 on an appetite suppressant over trying to spend $10 for a singular meal.

London: What do you expect, like always think like, people are so easy to like, Judge, especially because they just don't want to think about it just because it's just too much work. I feel like for a lot of people, and it's much easier to go like, Oh, they're just homeless and on drugs. And that's it. And it's like, no, you're being vague. You're really showing your ignorance right now. Can you imagine being homeless? And could you imagine, like, the fucking resources you don't have and how you would get like, if you could think of a plan, if you were homeless, how you would get out of homelessness? Great. Tell me Tell everyone else in like, go ahead, go do that. Could you couldn't!

Bethany: like they have no realistic idea of what it means to be homeless. And I think another part of it too, is people like to pretend that it can't be them. People like to pretend that they're healthy because they made good choices. They're wealthy, because they make good choices. They have a home because they make good choices. And it's like, really, you could get sick one time and be homeless next year. Like I don't care how much you could make six figures right now. You could get sick really bad right now. And next year be homeless. It's easier to pretend that that's not them. They don't like looking at the homeless person and saying, Hey, he's the same as me. Because it's scary. It's scary to think anything can happen and you can be in that situation.

London: This all reminds me of like, when Tyra Banks was homeless for a day it's horrible. I don't know why I know this. But she did this segment on her talk show once where she was homeless for a day but like I don't know how real that can be when you have cameras following you around and all you did was put on dirty clothes and sit outside with a sign or like a box or something so bad .

Zoe:When it's like girl like I know your dirty clothes are probably f$@#! designer so I don't want you to come at me with that.

Bethany:She won't understand the day as a homeless person because she knows she'll get to go home tomorrow and eat a homeless person doesn't know when they're gonna get their next meal a homeless person doesn't know where they're going to sleep the next word like have a bed next or a shower next, but she does now and it completely ignores the fact of how much of being homeless is just moment to moment survival. And like I know we talked about that like in human nature too but like I know I said we can excuse something about the nature of survival and we can well like how many homeless people are constantly in the nature of survival but like still live in communities still live in take care of each other or like are still kind.

Zoe: Talked about this before but it always remind As we have when I was in high school, like in psychology, we were talking about how, like, rich people cannot build community because they f#$!@  suck stuff of money. All of the aspects that go into that. And how like that's so generational. It's so where you're at, it's so what you're doing. It's so where you work and how much you make. But like, if someone who was like LDAP status was to, like you were saying before, like, experience homelessness, and like, began house for a couple months, like, no one's going to help them all these people are going to be sitting on so much money, and they will never let you inside their house, they will never let you sleep on their couch. But then if you think about it, and like communities that are not necessarily well off, like, if you're like, oh, shit, like, I don't think I'm gonna pay my electric bill, like, I'm gonna go over to my neighbor, I'm going to ask him for 50 bucks. I know, I'm gonna get him back on my next check. And like, whatever, you know what, like, they're gonna help me out I felt about before, like, you know, like, it's just like this almost, I don't want to say like, constant game of IOUs. But like, like, there's reliability.

London:You'll find a bigger community and people who have less resources or who just aren't as well as anytime, anyplace look like you, if you were like, like you said, if you were rich, and you've like, came down, you fell down. Like I was even watching a movie once where this woman she married with this wealthier man disconnected from her family. But as soon as he cheated on her, left her for another man, another woman, and was like, Hey, I'm leaving you with nothing, because prenup all that. And she immediately went back to her family who were not well off who lived in a dangerous neighborhood. And they immediately helped her they were like, they helped her like, find a place and do everything. And it's like, those are the people who will help you. And it's always like, the whole thing when it comes to like, donating and stuff and like helping people with like, Go Fund knees and like cash apps and all that. And it's like, we're all it's this joke. Like, we're all sitting around the same $5. But it's like, that's what that is, like, we understand how hard it is, how hard life actually is. And I feel like there's this disconnect when you're well off of how life actually is. It's like they're not actually a part of real life. And that's why a lot of that stuff, like a lot of that stuff happens. And they will never be able to build like a good community

Bethany: I think that means community is human nature. Because then when we talk about the people that break human nature the most we talk about the 1%. And like we said they lacked community they lacked understanding of reality. Without community humans aren't really human. They're like, they're wrong.

Zoe:It's like how are you so disconnected?

Bethany: It’s because  they hire people to make those connections for them. And that's how they become so human, and then we let these people take control and dictate how the world should be run and how. And we let them define what human nature isn't. It's like you're 1% of people who have no connection to community, no connection to real human nature. And you're gonna decide what the world is like

London:It's unnatural for people to be rich, like no one should actually be rich because it just disconnects you from reality.

Zoe; is that way everything is so goddamn expensive because some rich person was like, You know what this seems about? Right? I should about I shouldn't think I think it should price about here.

Bethany:Yeah, yeah, that's exactly why.

Zoe: Well, thank you, everyone for joining us. Hopefully. We grind your gears might have a sense of what the f@#$!?What was this topic? Yes. Hopefully you might have a better sense of if people are inherently good or bad or if it's just capitalism. We'll see you in two weeks.

Bethany:We'll see you when we see you. We'll see. We'll see when we see you!

Bethany:BYE!

London:BYE!

Zoe: BYE!